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Re: [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with composer/pickle

php.internals

Tony Marston

9 years ago
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 8:32 PM
>To: Tony Marston ; Stanislav Malyshev ; internals@lists.php.net >Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with composer/pickle > > >On 09/11/2016 10:47 AM, Tony Marston wrote: >> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 7:47 PM >>> To: Tony Marston ; internals@lists.php.net >>> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with composer/pickle >>> Hi!
<snip>
>> Then I suggest that those who are so anxious to see of death of PEAR/PECL should be forced to provide a viable alternative first. Otherwise they would be just like those stupid politicians who try to force commuters out of their private cars and into public transport without realising that the existing public transport system is NOT a viable replacement and is incapable of taking on the extra load.
>again, nobody is trying killing PEAR/PECL. do we need to use strong >terms to make that clear ?
To the average user if something is marked as deprecated it is the same as saying “do not use this feature any more”with the very next step being to kill it off completely. If you are not going to kill it then why deprecate it?
-- Tony Marston

Pierre Joye

9 years ago
On Sep 12, 2016 2:36 PM, "Tony Marston" <tonymarston@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 8:32 PM > >To: Tony Marston ; Stanislav Malyshev ; internals@lists.php.net > >Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with
composer/pickle
> > > > > >On 09/11/2016 10:47 AM, Tony Marston wrote: > >> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 7:47 PM > >>> To: Tony Marston ; internals@lists.php.net > >>> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with
composer/pickle
> >>> Hi! > <snip> > >> Then I suggest that those who are so anxious to see of death of
PEAR/PECL should be forced to provide a viable alternative first. Otherwise they would be just like those stupid politicians who try to force commuters out of their private cars and into public transport without realising that the existing public transport system is NOT a viable replacement and is incapable of taking on the extra load.
> > >again, nobody is trying killing PEAR/PECL. do we need to use strong > >terms to make that clear ? > > To the average user if something is marked as deprecated it is the same
as saying “do not use this feature any more”with the very next step being to kill it off completely.
> > If you are not going to kill it then why deprecate it?
This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its packages, etc.). To all: please re focus to the topic.

Derick Rethans

9 years ago
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Pierre Joye wrote:
> This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose > composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this > RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its > packages, etc.). > > To all: please re focus to the topic.
It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the PEAR/PECL installer. cheers, Derick

Silvio Marijić

9 years ago
I think Derick has a good point here. I agree on the part that we should stop bundling PEAR/PECL, but we might be rushing into pickle too fast. 2016-09-12 10:21 GMT+02:00 Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose > > composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this > > RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its > > packages, etc.). > > > > To all: please re focus to the topic. > > It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but > few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing > something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial > pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the > PEAR/PECL installer. > > cheers, > Derick > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > >
-- Silvio Marijić Software Engineer 2e Systems

Stas Malyshev

9 years ago
Hi!
> It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but > few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing > something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial > pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the > PEAR/PECL installer.
I also think this is the probably best way forward - first add the new tools and let them mature, and then mess with old tools in any way. We can verbally tell people that new tools are probably the new way forward and we want them to try them out and migrate - but I think it'd be better, at least in upcoming releases - e.g. 7.1/7.2 - to just add new tools and see how they fare. This is the least controversial part and IMHO also the most useful one :)
-- Stas Malyshev smalyshev@gmail.com

Niklas Keller

9 years ago
2016-09-12 10:21 GMT+02:00 Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose > > composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this > > RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its > > packages, etc.). > > > > To all: please re focus to the topic. > > It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but > few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing > something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial > pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the > PEAR/PECL installer.
In case of Composer: It shouldn't replace PEAR in terms of being bundled. Composer shouldn't be bundled in the future. Regards, Niklas

Derick Rethans

9 years ago
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Niklas Keller wrote:
> 2016-09-12 10:21 GMT+02:00 Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>: > > > On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > > > This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose > > > composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this > > > RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its > > > packages, etc.). > > > > > > To all: please re focus to the topic. > > > > It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but > > few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing > > something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial > > pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the > > PEAR/PECL installer. > > > In case of Composer: It shouldn't replace PEAR in terms of being bundled. > Composer shouldn't be bundled in the future.
Nowhere did I mention Composer. cheers Derick

Ferenc Kovacs

9 years ago
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose > > composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this > > RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its > > packages, etc.). > > > > To all: please re focus to the topic. > > It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but > few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing > something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial > pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the > PEAR/PECL installer.
yeah, unfortunately when the thread gets flooded with off-topic mails it is easy to miss some replies in the noise. I do agree that it would be better and easier to only vote for bundling pickle instead of also voting for unbundling PEAR at the same time.
-- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu

Nikita Popov

9 years ago
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Ferenc Kovacs <tyra3l@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote: > > > On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > > > This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose > > > composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this > > > RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its > > > packages, etc.). > > > > > > To all: please re focus to the topic. > > > > It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but > > few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing > > something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial > > pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the > > PEAR/PECL installer. > > > yeah, unfortunately when the thread gets flooded with off-topic mails it is > easy to miss some replies in the noise. > I do agree that it would be better and easier to only vote for bundling > pickle instead of also voting for unbundling PEAR at the same time. >
Is it (technically) possible to unbundle PEAR while leaving PECL? Nikita

Pierre Joye

9 years ago
On Sep 12, 2016 6:51 PM, "Nikita Popov" <nikita.ppv@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Ferenc Kovacs <tyra3l@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote: >> >> > On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Pierre Joye wrote: >> > >> > > This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose >> > > composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this >> > > RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its >> > > packages, etc.). >> > > >> > > To all: please re focus to the topic. >> > >> > It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but >> > few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing >> > something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial >> > pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the >> > PEAR/PECL installer. >> >> >> yeah, unfortunately when the thread gets flooded with off-topic mails it
is
>> easy to miss some replies in the noise. >> I do agree that it would be better and easier to only vote for bundling >> pickle instead of also voting for unbundling PEAR at the same time. > > > Is it (technically) possible to unbundle PEAR while leaving PECL?
Not really without actually bundling pear but not provide the pear cmd. Also pickle works with pecl.php.net as long as it has a package.xml v2, which is required since quite some time on release.

Ferenc Kovacs

9 years ago
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:51 PM, Nikita Popov <nikita.ppv@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Ferenc Kovacs <tyra3l@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote: >> >> > On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Pierre Joye wrote: >> > >> > > This RFC is about stop bundling it with the php releases and propose >> > > composer/pickle instead. Everything else has nothing to do with this >> > > RFC (aka web frontend, what happens or not on pear.php.net, its >> > > packages, etc.). >> > > >> > > To all: please re focus to the topic. >> > >> > It's curious to see though that the off-topic comments get replies, but >> > few real concerns do from the RFC author - such as not removing >> > something before we have a confirmed alternative. I'd like to trial >> > pickle first for a few releases and only then see whether to remove the >> > PEAR/PECL installer. >> >> >> yeah, unfortunately when the thread gets flooded with off-topic mails it >> is >> easy to miss some replies in the noise. >> I do agree that it would be better and easier to only vote for bundling >> pickle instead of also voting for unbundling PEAR at the same time. >> > > Is it (technically) possible to unbundle PEAR while leaving PECL? > > Nikita >
not really, we pull the pear installer directly from https://pear.php.net/install-pear-nozlib.phar there is no option to only install the pecl stuff, so it would either require a major rewrite on pear-core and a new release, or maybe we could try something like doing a standard install then proceed and delete out files (like pearcmd.php) as part of make install but that would be still sucky. and we still have most of PEAR core around and still no pecl package install support on windows. with bundling pickle we could remove the PEAR dependency and pickle would also work on windows.
-- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu