PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

Lynn

4 years ago

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

+100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine

Aaron Junker

4 years ago

I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.
________________________________
From: Lynn <kjarli@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
To: Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

+100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine

Andreas Heigl

4 years ago

Hey All

On 02.03.22 11:16, Aaron Junker wrote:

> I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.
> ________________________________
> From: Lynn <kjarli@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
> To: Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello internals.
>>
>> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
>> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
>> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
>> aggression.
>>
>> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
>> the header of php.net website.
>>
>> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
>> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
>> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
>> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
>> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>>
>> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
>> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
>> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>>
>> Say NO to war!
>>
>
> +100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
> https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine

I'd be in favour of the idea as well.

Best would be though to create a PR against the
https://github.com/php/web-php repo.

Cheers

Andreas

--
,,,
(o o)
+---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl                                                       |
| mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org                                           |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas                               |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Unnamed Person

4 years ago

Am 02-Mar-2022 11:39:01 +0100 schrieb andreas@heigl.org:
> Hey All
> 
> On 02.03.22 11:16, Aaron Junker wrote:
> > I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.
> > ________________________________
> > From: Lynn <kjarli@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
> > To: Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> > Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
> > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression
> > 
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> Hello internals.
> >>
> >> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> >> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> >> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> >> aggression.
> >>
> >> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> >> the header of php.net website.
> >>
> >> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> >> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> >> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> >> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> >> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> >>
> >> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> >> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> >> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
> >>
> >> Say NO to war!
> >>
> > 
> > +100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
> > https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine
> 
> I'd be in favour of the idea as well.
> 
> Best would be though to create a PR against the 
> https://github.com/php/web-php repo.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andreas

I'd support this, if there will be added flags of all countries where armed conflicts are going on. There's a list on Wikipedia[1] were those are shown.
Otherwise the people in those areas are discriminated.

> >> A lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.

Do you have any numbers?

PHP's community is very diverse. Starting to support one party of the conflict will create separation of the community. And in future political conflicts PHP will have to take sides, too. Which leads to more separation.
Please don't start that now. Or we will get in trouble in the future.

Best regards
Christian


[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

Aaron Junker

4 years ago

Hi Christian

> I'd support this, if there will be added flags of all countries where armed conflicts are going on. There's a list on Wikipedia[1] were those are shown.
> Otherwise the people in those areas are discriminated.

You have a valid point, however it's not always clear which side is "right" and which is "wrong", as in Ukraine, Russia just invaded Ukraine, without any right to do that.

And for certain conflicts only showing a flag could provocate some people.

Best regards
Aaron

________________________________
Von: naitsirch@e.mail.de <naitsirch@e.mail.de>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. März 2022, 12:16
An: andreas@heigl.org; internals@lists.php.net; crocodile2u@gmail.com
Betreff: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression



Am 02-Mar-2022 11:39:01 +0100 schrieb andreas@heigl.org:

> Hey All
>
> On 02.03.22 11:16, Aaron Junker wrote:
> > I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.
> > ________________________________
> > From: Lynn <kjarli@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
> > To: Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> > Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
> > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hello internals.
> >>
> >> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> >> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> >> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> >> aggression.
> >>
> >> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> >> the header of php.net website.
> >>
> >> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> >> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> >> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> >> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> >> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> >>
> >> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> >> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> >> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
> >>
> >> Say NO to war!
> >>
> >
> > +100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
> > https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine
>
> I'd be in favour of the idea as well.
>
> Best would be though to create a PR against the
> https://github.com/php/web-php repo.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andreas

I'd support this, if there will be added flags of all countries where armed conflicts are going on. There's a list on Wikipedia[1] were those are shown.
Otherwise the people in those areas are discriminated.

> >> A lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.

Do you have any numbers?

PHP's community is very diverse. Starting to support one party of the conflict will create separation of the community. And in future political conflicts PHP will have to take sides, too. Which leads to more separation.
Please don't start that now. Or we will get in trouble in the future.

Best regards
Christian


[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

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Unnamed Person

4 years ago

Marco Pivetta

4 years ago

Hey Christian,

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:

> this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane
> on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> and the western.
>
> As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> simple. Usually there's a long story.
> Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> sure.
>
> Please do not start that.
>
> You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
>

Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
busy enough with butchering civilians over there.

Greets,

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius

http://ocramius.github.io/

Michał Brzuchalski

4 years ago

śr., 2 mar 2022 o 13:51 Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com> napisał(a):

> Hey Christian,
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:
>
> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
> Ukriane
> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> > and the western.
> >
> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> > sure.
> >
> > Please do not start that.
> >
> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >
>
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>

+1 full support, you got my keoboard.

Cheers,
Michał Marcin Brzuchalski

Andreas Heigl

4 years ago

Hey All

On 02.03.22 13:50, Marco Pivetta wrote:

> Hey Christian,
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:
>
>> this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
>> nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
>> Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
>> earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane
>> on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
>> and the western.
>>
>> As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
>> not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
>> simple. Usually there's a long story.
>> Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
>> sure.
>>
>> Please do not start that.
>>
>> You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
>> facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
>>
>
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.

Thanks Marco!

Standing up against bullies is something that this community so far has
been great at.

Taking no side in a political conflict means taking the side of the
bully. And THAT will separate the community!

And taking the side of Ukraine does not make other conflicts less valid
or cruel. It's standing up against injustice.

Cheers

Andreas

--
,,,
(o o)
+---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl                                                       |
| mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org                                           |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas                               |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Michał Brzuchalski

4 years ago

śr., 2 mar 2022 o 14:00 Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org> napisał(a):

> Hey All
>
> On 02.03.22 13:50, Marco Pivetta wrote:
> > Hey Christian,
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:
> >
> >> this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> >> nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> >> Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> >> earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
> Ukriane
> >> on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between
> Russia
> >> and the western.
> >>
> >> As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> >> not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> >> simple. Usually there's a long story.
> >> Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> >> sure.
> >>
> >> Please do not start that.
> >>
> >> You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> >> facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >>
> >
> > Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as
> they're
> > busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>
> Thanks Marco!
>
> Standing up against bullies is something that this community so far has
> been great at.
>
> Taking no side in a political conflict means taking the side of the
> bully. And THAT will separate the community!
>
> And taking the side of Ukraine does not make other conflicts less valid
> or cruel. It's standing up against injustice.
>

Thanks!

I do not agree to do nothing!
If this could reach anyone through Putin's propaganda, I'd say it was worth
it!
I'm pretty sure it can be explained that the support was spread because of
the clearly blatant war crimes against the Ukrainian people and totally
unjustified aggression.

--
Michał Marcin Brzuchalski

Unnamed Person

4 years ago

Am 02-Mar-2022 13:51:07 +0100 schrieb ocramius@gmail.com:
> 
> Hey Christian,
> 
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:
> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia and the western.
> > 
> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never simple. Usually there's a long story.
> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for sure.
> > 
> > Please do not start that.
> > 
> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter, facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> 
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
> 
> Greets,
> 
> Marco Pivetta 

Hi Marco,

this is exactly what I meant. It leads to separation of the community and hate against each other. You judge my statement as Putin propaganda although I have not said I am supporting Putin or the war. I only wanted to make clear, that if we start to support Ukraine as the victimized party in this conflict we have to do that in other conflicts, too.

Look at the Iraquis who were attacked by the USA, the Uyghurs in China, the poulation in Noth Korea or the war in Yemen. Thousands of people are dying there every year and nobody is raising his voice.

Maybe I can give you an example to make clear what I mean: If the banner for the Ukraine is shown on php.net. I could request a banner for the people in Hong Kong who are suppressed by China, too. If you refuse it, it would be very unfair. If you say "yes" there should come more requests. Then php internals will have to create rules when php.net should show its solidarity and when not.

I hope you understand my point better, now.

Best regards
Christian

Michał Brzuchalski

4 years ago

śr., 2 mar 2022 o 14:56 <naitsirch@e.mail.de> napisał(a):

>
>
> Am 02-Mar-2022 13:51:07 +0100 schrieb ocramius@gmail.com:
> >
> > Hey Christian,
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:
> > > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out
> of nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane
> on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> and the western.
> > >
> > > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I
> do not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> simple. Usually there's a long story.
> > > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community
> for sure.
> > >
> > > Please do not start that.
> > >
> > > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >
> > Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as
> they're busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
> >
> > Greets,
> >
> > Marco Pivetta
>
> Hi Marco,
>
> this is exactly what I meant. It leads to separation of the community and
> hate against each other. You judge my statement as Putin propaganda
> although I have not said I am supporting Putin or the war. I only wanted to
> make clear, that if we start to support Ukraine as the victimized party in
> this conflict we have to do that in other conflicts, too.
>
> Look at the Iraquis who were attacked by the USA, the Uyghurs in China,
> the poulation in Noth Korea or the war in Yemen. Thousands of people are
> dying there every year and nobody is raising his voice.
>

In 7d almost 10 thousand died in Ukraine (including both sides). Not in a
year!
If you don't see this then I have no words.

--
Michał Marcin Brzuchalski

Andreas Heigl

4 years ago

Hey.

On 02.03.22 14:56, naitsirch@e.mail.de wrote:

>
>
> Am 02-Mar-2022 13:51:07 +0100 schrieb ocramius@gmail.com:
>>
>> Hey Christian,
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:
>>> this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia and the western.
>>>
>>> As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never simple. Usually there's a long story.
>>> Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for sure.
>>>
>>> Please do not start that.
>>>
>>> You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter, facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
>>
>> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Marco Pivetta
>
> Hi Marco,
>
> this is exactly what I meant. It leads to separation of the community and hate against each other. You judge my statement as Putin propaganda although I have not said I am supporting Putin or the war. I only wanted to make clear, that if we start to support Ukraine as the victimized party in this conflict we have to do that in other conflicts, too.
>
> Look at the Iraquis who were attacked by the USA, the Uyghurs in China, the poulation in Noth Korea or the war in Yemen. Thousands of people are dying there every year and nobody is raising his voice.

The US attack against Iraq was ... debateable but is by now history.
Yes: We perhaps should have taken a side at that time! We can learn from
that!

The other things you mention are state-internal affairs that are far
from being OK! Don't get me wrong on that! But they do not qualify as
invading a separate country! As an act of war. They are internal affairs
and as such sadly qualify differently. And despite us having ideas about
human rights etc taking sides in an internal affair always has a
connotation of Colonialism. "We know it better". But in the case of
Ukraine there is a clear aggressor that has invaded an independent
country which is against all internationally agreed upon laws, rules and
regulations. Not standing up against that silently tolerates that
behaviour. Which is not something I like to endorse.

And standing up against the injustice against the Ukraine does not
negate the other injustices around the world. Whether that is the way
women are being treated by the new Afghanistan government, the uigurs in
China are treated, the whole mess in and around Israel or the way POC
are treated in the US. And this totally incomplete list is in no way
trying to compare these different things with one another.

> Maybe I can give you an example to make clear what I mean: If the banner for the Ukraine is shown on php.net. I could request a banner for the people in Hong Kong who are suppressed by China, too. If you refuse it, it would be very unfair. If you say "yes" there should come more requests. Then php internals will have to create rules when php.net should show its solidarity and when not.

The rule would be: Internal affairs are shit but they are exactly that:
Internal affairs. A war of aggression (one country attacking another one
without the justification of self-defence) IMO justifies solidarity with
the attacked country.

Cheers

Andreas

--
,,,
(o o)
+---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl                                                       |
| mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org                                           |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas                               |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Derick Rethans

4 years ago

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022, naitsirch@e.mail.de wrote:

> I only wanted to make clear, that if we start to support Ukraine as
> the victimized party in this conflict we have to do that in other
> conflicts, too.

This is a logical fallacy called whataboutery, and an invention of the
Soviet Union propaganda machine. I suggest you read up on that:

https://twitter.com/im_PULSE/status/1498373930314518528
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

cheers,
Derick

Kalle Sommer Nielsen

4 years ago

Den ons. 2. mar. 2022 kl. 14.51 skrev Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com>:

> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.

I heavily agree with this matter, the PHP project should remain
neutral. Seeing this thread already makes me dread the idea of even
considering such, even if it is done with the purest of intentions.


Big -1 from me (and to all future proposals of similar political matter)

--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net

Victor Bolshov

4 years ago

This is going to cause debate, I was sure about it. And if the
community agrees at least to state "NO WAR", that is already something.

To provide more context on Putin's propaganda: he has been consistently
putting more and more restrictions on nearly each and every independent
media. I can only name one nation-wide radio-station - "Echo of
Moscow", which has been deprived of their FM frequency as of today.
There is 1 printed nation-wide newspaper "Novaya Gazeta"
(editor-in-chief Dmitry Muratov was awarded Nobel Prize this year).
Other noticeable media mostly have been claimed "foreign agents" which
heavily impacts their operation. To name one thing, they have to have a
preamble to every publication with a long disclaimer "this material was
published by a foreign agent (actually much longer a utterly
bureaucratic crap)". Also, other media are only available on internet.
The russian government controls internet through their puppet
RosKomNadzor which can block any website in Russia without even the
need for a court hearing or an court order. A big radio-station "Silver
Rain" have closed all their news and political shows as of today,
because it's no longer allowed to say a word of truth in Russia.

The world has seen these patterns before, and we all know what the
consequences of good people remaining silent were.



On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 17:12, Kalle Sommer Nielsen <kalle@php.net>
wrote:

Kris Craig

4 years ago

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Christian,
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:
>
> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
> Ukriane
> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> > and the western.
> >
> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> > sure.
> >
> > Please do not start that.
> >
> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >
>
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>
> Greets,
>
> Marco Pivetta
>
> http://twitter.com/Ocramius
>
> http://ocramius.github.io/

I find this deeply, deeply disturbing.  In response to someone making the
argument that using the PHP website to take sides in military conflicts
between nations would risk dividing our community, you told him to "get the
fuck out" and accused him of promoting "Putin's propaganda".  From where
I'm sitting, this looks like a blatant effort on your part to silence any
dissent on this by immediately demonizing critics of this idea as Russian
operatives.  Are you going to accuse me of being a Russian spy now, as well?

To be clear, I don't support Putin's invasion of Ukraine.  In fact, I was
denouncing Putin on social media as a brutal dictator before it was cool,
back when the western news media was still singing his praises.  He's a war
criminal piece of garbage and the world will be much better off when he's
finally gone.

But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking
sides in military conflicts.  I just don't like the precedent we'd be
setting, especially since, as others have already pointed out here, we
never took any such stand against the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq,
or Libya.  So if we were to start doing that now, it would look pretty damn
hypocritical of us.  Plus I don't want us to start having to deal with
batshit conspiracy theories about how PHP is secretly controlled by the
U.S. government.  Besides, it should be noted that PHP is not a political
organization.

If anybody's open to a compromise proposal, how about a general statement
of support for the peoples of Ukraine and any other nation currently
besieged by foreign invaders.  That I think would be far less divisive, as
evidenced by some of the messages we're seeing in this thread.  Accusing
every random dissenter of being an agent of Vladimir Putin just reeks of
logical fallacies, not to mention paranoia.  Reverting back to a
McCarthyist mindset will not help the people of Ukraine.

So can we please try to tone this down a bit?  I read through this entire
thread (painful though it was in places) and was not able to find anything
that any reasonable observer would regard as "Putin propaganda".  Nobody
here is a Russian secret agent trying to mindfuck us.  What I see is a
group of people who believe PHP needs to take a stand on this issue and
another group of people who believe PHP has no business getting involved.
Both are valid arguments worthy of debate, which means there's absolutely
NO NEED to question people's motives or demonize them as being agents of
Putin or the U.S. or whatever else.  Just debate the merits of the issue,
take a vote, and we're good.

Alternatively, I also like Viktor's idea of making a broader statement
against war in general.

Pierre Joye

4 years ago

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022, 10:31 AM Kris Craig <kris.craig@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking
> sides in military conflicts.
>

There is no side to take but the population in Ukraine, friends, family,
colleagues as well as in Russians, the victims of a dictatorship' lies.

I don't see any issue to show our support for them, quite the opposite, I
do see an issue not to show it. A link to red cross and other ong
supporting refugees and civilians is not political, it is being a human.

It does not mean we take a political side. As much as there is not much to
discuss about that, but the deconstruction,  point by point, of every
single claim to justify this invasion, but php.net is not the place for
that.

best,

Marco Pivetta

4 years ago

On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, 04:31 Kris Craig, <kris.craig@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta <ocramius@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Christian,
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsirch@e.mail.de> wrote:
>>
>> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
>> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
>> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
>> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
>> Ukriane
>> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between
>> Russia
>> > and the western.
>> >
>> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
>> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
>> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
>> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
>> > sure.
>> >
>> > Please do not start that.
>> >
>> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
>> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
>> >
>>
>> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as
>> they're
>> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Marco Pivetta
>>
>> http://twitter.com/Ocramius
>>
>> http://ocramius.github.io/
>
>
> I find this deeply, deeply disturbing.
>

Good: time for some self introspection then.

As for the rest of the thread, I am deeply ashamed of the state of
php-internals.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Gfsiw2pf_Y0&time=1h44m48s

I will take (continue taking) action elsewhere: the fact that some of you
are "disturbed" by my message, means that it came through as intended.

Dan Ackroyd

4 years ago

Hi Victor,

I have strong feelings about the war and that people should be taking
whatever personal action they can (check my pinned tweet, @MrDanack),
but:

i) PHP Internals is for discussion of PHP internals.

ii) We have contributors on both sides of the conflict. There are also
many other causes that people can or should be supporting. Having
conversations about what position the PHP project should take for
reach of those causes is a conversation that takes away time + energy
from PHP.

iii) Adding flags help when issues are little known or obscure, but
aren't useful when a cause is well known. Except maybe make people
feel a little bit better about "having done something".

It possible for projects many fewer contributors than PHP does to
"speak with a single voice". E.g. there appear to be 3 main
contributors to JUnit. But projects the size of PHP need to either
stay apolitical or to have a strong executive team that can make
decisions on behalf of the project.

I do urge everyone to take effective action that they can personally
do themselves, but the suggestion is not likely to help, and is likely
to turn a shouting match very quickly.

cheers
Dan
Ack

Aaron Junker

4 years ago

Hi all

As I see this there is strong agreement against war, but not for taking a side on a conflict.

So then why not showing a banner or something against war. No war or side in particular just for humanity and peace.

I think that's something everyone could agree with.

Let me know what you all think.

Best regards
Aaron
________________________________
From: Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:31:05 AM
To: internals@lists.php.net <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

Hello internals.

In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
aggression.

I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
the header of php.net website.

Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.

This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
<https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.

Say NO to war!

Michał Brzuchalski

4 years ago

śr., 2 mar 2022 o 14:34 Aaron Junker <aaron.junker@outlook.com> napisał(a):

> Hi all
>
> As I see this there is strong agreement against war, but not for taking a
> side on a conflict.
>
> So then why not showing a banner or something against war. No war or side
> in particular just for humanity and peace.
>
> I think that's something everyone could agree with.
>
> Let me know what you all think.
>

I wanted to express it by an example but cannot find better words which
took me almost 15m, so I'll try to use simple words instead.
No. IMHO that's not enough.

--
Michał Marcin Brzuchalski

Andreas Heigl

4 years ago

Hey Aaron.

On 02.03.22 14:34, Aaron Junker wrote:

> Hi all
>
> As I see this there is strong agreement against war, but not for taking a side on a conflict.
>
> So then why not showing a banner or something against war. No war or side in particular just for humanity and peace.
>
> I think that's something everyone could agree with.
>
> Let me know what you all think.

As previous posts here have show: there are strong proponents of the idea.

So to move forward with this I'd recommend to create a PR against the
website-repo on github and we'll discuss the concrete implementation
there and eventually merge and deploy it.

Provide a Screenshot of what it will look like and I'm sure we will have
a fruitful discussion there.

Cheers

Andreas

--
,,,
(o o)
+---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl                                                       |
| mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org                                           |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas                               |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Chase Peeler

4 years ago

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 8:34 AM Aaron Junker <aaron.junker@outlook.com>
wrote:

> Hi all
>
> As I see this there is strong agreement against war, but not for taking a
> side on a conflict.
>
> So then why not showing a banner or something against war. No war or side
> in particular just for humanity and peace.
>
> I think that's something everyone could agree with.
>
> Let me know what you all think.
>

I don't agree with that. I think war is horrible and should be avoided at
all costs, but there are times it is justified.

>
> Best regards
> Aaron
> ________________________________
> From: Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:31:05 AM
> To: internals@lists.php.net <internals@lists.php.net>
> Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop
> Russian agression
>
> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>
>

--
Chase Peeler
chasepeeler@gmail.com

Stas Malyshev

4 years ago

Hello all,

I do not know if anybody here knows much about me personally, but I was
born in Ukraine, lived there for all my youth and my relatives and
friends are still there. You can imagine my feelings about this horrible
attack on Ukraine that is going on right now.

I am sincerely and wholeheartedly thankful to everybody supporting the
people of Ukraine in this terrible time, either by speaking out or by
helping materially, monetarily or otherwise. If you want to help more,
please look here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1agAW4CQEdi5cDCSa8l8C5ez6Yflz5zaVIzMEgehqwq0/edit
or seek other charities that are helping Ukrainian people now. Your help
is most appreciated.

That said, I am not sure whether it is a good idea to turn PHP site into
a forum for political announcements. Even if they are of the most
righteous and benevolent type. I am not exactly opposed to the idea, as
I can not be opposed to any expression of support, but I feel it may not
cause much good (certainly won't convince anybody, if the sights of
rockets and shells destroying hospitals, kindergartens, churches,
apartment buildings, maternity wards, and so on didn't) and there are
better ways to express your support - such as contacting your local
political representative, if you live in a democratic country, and/or
using the links above, or donating your time and technical expertise to
one of the relied efforts (I imagine some of them could use a skilled
web developer).

That said, if somebody were to design a logo version with Ukraine flag
and put it on PHP site, I don't think anybody in Ukraine would be
offended by it...

Sorry if it sounds a bit confused, these are challenging times.

--
Stas Malyshev
smalyshev@gmail.com

Paul

4 years ago

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:08 PM Stanislav Malyshev <smalyshev@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> That said, if somebody were to design a logo version with Ukraine flag
>

In case anyone has use for it: https://svgshare.com/i/epJ.svg

Colors are #0057b7 and #ffd700, from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ukraine#Design, with a white
stroke.

Paul Dragoonis

4 years ago

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 11:11 PM Paul Crovella <paul.crovella@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:08 PM Stanislav Malyshev <smalyshev@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > That said, if somebody were to design a logo version with Ukraine flag
> >
>
> In case anyone has use for it: https://svgshare.com/i/epJ.svg
>
> Colors are #0057b7 and #ffd700, from
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ukraine#Design, with a white
> stroke.
>

Opinions aside: PHP, like many other OSS projects, has substantial amounts
of people in Russia and non-Russia. Fact.

Let's keep an OSS project focusing on the technology that we're building
here, and take politics out of the equation here, entirely.

Please can we go to the correct platforms such as Twitter, FB, LinkedIn,
and others, for such conversations, discussions, moralities, and debates?

We all love the PHP project, and let's not get it dragged into the mess
going on in the outside world.

OSS for many is a safe haven to sink your work and focus into, stress
relief, an outlet, and a place free from outside world problems; let's try
to healthily keep it that way, shall we?

Nobody has to listen to me, but I really hope that you do.

Andreas Heigl

4 years ago

Hey Paul, All.

On 03.03.22 00:45, Paul Dragoonis wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 11:11 PM Paul Crovella <paul.crovella@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:08 PM Stanislav Malyshev <smalyshev@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> That said, if somebody were to design a logo version with Ukraine flag
>>>
>>
>> In case anyone has use for it: https://svgshare.com/i/epJ.svg
>>
>> Colors are #0057b7 and #ffd700, from
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ukraine#Design, with a white
>> stroke.
>>
>
> Opinions aside: PHP, like many other OSS projects, has substantial amounts
> of people in Russia and non-Russia. Fact.
>
> Let's keep an OSS project focusing on the technology that we're building
> here, and take politics out of the equation here, entirely.
>
> Please can we go to the correct platforms such as Twitter, FB, LinkedIn,
> and others, for such conversations, discussions, moralities, and debates?
>
> We all love the PHP project, and let's not get it dragged into the mess
> going on in the outside world.
>
> OSS for many is a safe haven to sink your work and focus into, stress
> relief, an outlet, and a place free from outside world problems; let's try
> to healthily keep it that way, shall we?

OSS might not be the safe haven for everyone as some might have not on
their radar. Think of the prominent cases of Stallman and Thorvals. OSS
can only be a safe haven when we take action to make sure that they are
actually safe.

And one of these actions can be to make it very clear that violence,
aggression, intolerance and fake news have no place in this community.
Not by saying so or being tolerant about them, but by explicitly showing
that we want to be a safe haven.

And yes: Substantial parts of PHPs code are from Russian as well as from
Ukranian developers. And some of the later ones currently are not able
to contribute because they are right now, at this very moment, trying to
defend their homes, their families and their lives against an illegal
invasion from a foreign government.

So the PHP project has already been dragged into this mess. It is not a
project outside of space and time. We all are the PHP project. And some
of us are being forced to fear for their lives due to some dick wanting
to show off.

Cheers

Andreas

--
,,,
(o o)
+---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl                                                       |
| mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org                                           |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas                               |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Сергей Пантелеев

4 years ago

Hey all,

I'd like to add my 2c:

I agree that php.net is not the right place to express our personal citizenship.
It's better to use Twitter, Facebook, or another social network for these purposes.


If you believe that the PHP community is obliged to show solidarity on the php.net,
and not every person personally,
I suggest that instead of a banner we release a News on the main page.

>Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia.
>A lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.
>They still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators.
>Seeing that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.

I can not answer for all Russian developers, but I can judge by myself and my social circle:
we're against the war, "military operation" or any other aggression, whatever you want to call it.

Also, colleagues from the IT industry have drafted an open letter to the national government [1-2].

In addition to highlighting the problem, we can also add these links:
in this case, developers from Russia will see, that not only people,
who have their respect do not support the war, but also their fellow countrymen.

[1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rSmclqedrhTASIsyXLOz39pU0WzV8b443au9X88Lx_c/edit
[2] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jBJPwCkR6UfTF_6KnU6m5w3ViDj4076r_Bvd88UwCKg/edit

—
wbr,
Sergey Panteleev

Victor Bolshov

4 years ago

Even a simple sign of solidarity against the war is important, if this
is something community can agree to, without having to fall into mutual
hatred.

I personally would love to see a clear support for Ukraine, but if that
will be causing endless debate I would give up on this in favor of a
general anti-war statement, at least until it is clear to the vast
majority of smart people here that Putin is a threat for humanity and
civilization, and I am NOT exaggerating. Ukraine is currently the
civilized world's outpost that is giving their lives to oppose madness
and chaos.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 10:31, Sergey Panteleev <sergey@s-panteleev.ru>
wrote:

Сергей Пантелеев

4 years ago

I'd suggest making a PR with the News (press release) in web-php
and maybe discussing it already on GitHub,
since it would get more coverage and we can hear more opinions.

But I'm very much afraid that this could lead to an uncontrolled flow of messages,
as it was recently in the github/feedback discussions [1].

If there are no objections to this option, let's try?


[1] https://github.com/github/feedback/discussions/12042

—
wbr,
Sergey Panteleev

Kalle Sommer Nielsen

4 years ago

Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 10.48 skrev Sergey Panteleev <sergey@s-panteleev.ru>:

>
> I'd suggest making a PR with the News (press release) in web-php
> and maybe discussing it already on GitHub,
> since it would get more coverage and we can hear more opinions.

The moment you do that, you put the PHP project into making a stance
on every politics and world events, like BLM, are we also now gonna
have an LGBT banner too? No, the PHP project is not a place for such.

--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net

Christian Schneider

4 years ago

Am 03.03.2022 um 10:11 schrieb Kalle Sommer Nielsen <kalle@php.net>:

> Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 10.48 skrev Sergey Panteleev <sergey@s-panteleev.ru>:
>>
>> I'd suggest making a PR with the News (press release) in web-php
>> and maybe discussing it already on GitHub,
>> since it would get more coverage and we can hear more opinions.
>
> The moment you do that, you put the PHP project into making a stance
> on every politics and world events, like BLM, are we also now gonna
> have an LGBT banner too? No, the PHP project is not a place for such.

I don't think you do.

Even if a project stays neutral on most topics does not mean there is not a threshold where joining a wide-spread appeal or sign of solidarity is the right thing to do.

The question where you set that threshold is a different question.
Personally I'd support a banner on the website but won't hold it against people who think otherwise.

Disclosure: I'm Swiss, and even (in)famously off-hands Switzerland decided to join sanctions in this case ;-)

Regards,
- Chris

Arvids Godjuks

4 years ago

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 11:31, Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>
>

As someone from Baltics and living there still - yeah, colour be yellow and
blue all the way.

But I also think we should leave php.net out of it - this is not a project
with a core tea - this is a very distributed project that probably touches
almost every single country on this planet.

Another reason - just look what happened to the React's issue tracker:
https://github.com/facebook/react/issues  - you can bet your life on it
that this will happen to the PHP project as soon as there is anything on
this topic done. Does the project has resources to deal with it? I mean,
this is basically a DDoS that can be solved only by closing off issue
creation from public.

It's just impractical and will ruin maintainers and contributors ability to
do their work for the foreseeable future.

--

Arvīds Godjuks
+371 26 851 664
arvids.godjuks@gmail.com
Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius

[ ]

4 years ago

All the world currently talks about the situation in Ukraine. Everyone who
knows the truth are trying to help stop invasion. The main problem here is
that most of Russian people believe in Putin's political position. Moreover
they will have Instagram and Twitter blocked soon in Russia so that they
won't be able to know the real state of things.

Therefore our responsibility is to bring the truth to Russian people and
they will do the rest. PS. 70% of surveyed people support Putin. How else
we can inform them of what is really going on if not writing about it
everywhere?

If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.



On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 5:49 PM Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com>
wrote:

Chase Peeler

4 years ago

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 12:56 PM Eugene Sidelnyk <zsidelnik@gmail.com> wrote:

> All the world currently talks about the situation in Ukraine. Everyone who
> knows the truth are trying to help stop invasion. The main problem here is
> that most of Russian people believe in Putin's political position. Moreover
> they will have Instagram and Twitter blocked soon in Russia so that they
> won't be able to know the real state of things.
>
> Therefore our responsibility is to bring the truth to Russian people and
> they will do the rest. PS. 70% of surveyed people support Putin. How else
> we can inform them of what is really going on if not writing about it
> everywhere?
>
>

A banner on php.net isn't going to change their minds

> If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
> you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
> of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.
>
>

This is the kind of language we need to avoid. Don't accuse people of not
caring just because they don't agree with how to approach the issue.

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 5:49 PM Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 11:31, Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello internals.
> > >
> > > In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> > > of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> > > to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> > > aggression.
> > >
> > > I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> > > the header of php.net website.
> > >
> > > Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> > > lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> > > still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> > > that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> > > the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> > >
> > > This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> > > an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> > > <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
> > >
> > > Say NO to war!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > As someone from Baltics and living there still - yeah, colour be yellow
> and
> > blue all the way.
> >
> > But I also think we should leave php.net out of it - this is not a
> project
> > with a core tea - this is a very distributed project that probably
> touches
> > almost every single country on this planet.
> >
> > Another reason - just look what happened to the React's issue tracker:
> > https://github.com/facebook/react/issues  - you can bet your life on it
> > that this will happen to the PHP project as soon as there is anything on
> > this topic done. Does the project has resources to deal with it? I mean,
> > this is basically a DDoS that can be solved only by closing off issue
> > creation from public.
> >
> > It's just impractical and will ruin maintainers and contributors ability
> to
> > do their work for the foreseeable future.
> > --
> >
> > Arvīds Godjuks
> > +371 26 851 664
> > arvids.godjuks@gmail.com
> > Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius
> >
>

--
Chase Peeler
chasepeeler@gmail.com

[ ]

4 years ago

And how do they approach the issue? How effective is their approach?
Currently I don't see any result of it.

About won't change - I don't agree. At leas for someone it would. The more
people see something the more they believe in it. This is exactly
how propaganda works

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 7:59 PM Chase Peeler <chasepeeler@gmail.com> wrote:

Alain Williams

4 years ago

On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 07:56:39PM +0200, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:

> If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
> you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
> of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.

Not true, I do care. I have done several things, eg: the Ukraine flag is on my
own web site.

However: I do not believe that it is right for this to be on the php.net web
site. PHP is not either a political organisation nor something with a high
public profile: we are not FIFA. If we support Ukraine who else do we support.

We can encourage that those on this list should show their support in their own
way. We can not put it stronger than that; we might also find that some on this
list might support what Putin is doing, we must respect their views - if so
then discussion with them should be elsewhere - not on this list.

I am very sympathetic, but I think that PHP should avoid this issue.

--
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

[ ]

4 years ago

Maybe we'd create an RFC, create an poll and decide this way?

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 8:10 PM Alain D D Williams <addw@phcomp.co.uk> wrote:

Max Semenik

4 years ago

Each of these options would take some time, and time is what

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:14 PM Eugene Sidelnyk <zsidelnik@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe we'd create an RFC, create an poll and decide this way?
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 8:10 PM Alain D D Williams <addw@phcomp.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 07:56:39PM +0200, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:
> >
> > > If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean
> that
> > > you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for
> discussion
> > > of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.
> >
> > Not true, I do care. I have done several things, eg: the Ukraine flag is
> > on my
> > own web site.
> >
> > However: I do not believe that it is right for this to be on the php.net
> > web
> > site. PHP is not either a political organisation nor something with a
> high
> > public profile: we are not FIFA. If we support Ukraine who else do we
> > support.
> >
> > We can encourage that those on this list should show their support in
> > their own
> > way. We can not put it stronger than that; we might also find that some
> on
> > this
> > list might support what Putin is doing, we must respect their views - if
> so
> > then discussion with them should be elsewhere - not on this list.
> >
> > I am very sympathetic, but I think that PHP should avoid this issue.
> >
> > --
> > Alain Williams
> > Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer,
> IT
> > Lecturer.
> > +44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
> > Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information:
> > https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
> > #include <std_disclaimer.h>
> >
> > --
> > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
>

--
Best regards,
Max Semenik

[ ]

4 years ago

BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 8:27 PM Max Semenik <maxsem.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

Kalle Sommer Nielsen

4 years ago

Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 20.29 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk <zsidelnik@gmail.com>:

>
> BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
> issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?

The problem is making a political statement. This is not something the
PHP project does; you may think that it means the PHP project doesn't
care and that is in your right to do so. However it is not the place
for PHP to make a statement on this matter, nor is it on other
matters. You are welcome to promote this on your own social media
platforms and websites.

The general statements made here by you tonight is more alike to being
kafkatraps based on the phrasing, which I would refrain from
(regardless of the topic being discussed).

--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net

Alain Williams

4 years ago

On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 11:46:39PM +0200, Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote:

> Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 20.29 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk <zsidelnik@gmail.com>:
> >
> > BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
> > issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?
>
> The problem is making a political statement. This is not something the
> PHP project does; you may think that it means the PHP project doesn't
> care and that is in your right to do so. However it is not the place
> for PHP to make a statement on this matter, nor is it on other
> matters. You are welcome to promote this on your own social media
> platforms and websites.

You might like to read this article about ICANN not deleting all Russian domains:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/03/icann_ukraine_russian_domains/

--
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Lynn

4 years ago

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 10:46 PM Kalle Sommer Nielsen <kalle@php.net> wrote:

> Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 20.29 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk <zsidelnik@gmail.com
> >:
> >
> > BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
> > issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?
>
> The problem is making a political statement. This is not something the
> PHP project does; you may think that it means the PHP project doesn't
> care and that is in your right to do so. However it is not the place
> for PHP to make a statement on this matter, nor is it on other
> matters. You are welcome to promote this on your own social media
> platforms and websites.
>

Not making a statement is also making a statement.

Kalle Sommer Nielsen

4 years ago

Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn <kjarli@gmail.com>:

> Not making a statement is also making a statement.

I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is insanity

--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net

[ ]

4 years ago

You can't just go the usual way like nothing happens. This is the same as
if you know someone dying and say: well, I can't help with anything, so I
will do nothing against it. Inaction in such cases offends people. Banner
is the least possible, still useful way to help and people will know you
are trying to help whatever you think you can help.

By "you" I mean PHP community.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 11:46 PM Kalle Sommer Nielsen <kalle@php.net> wrote:

Kalle Sommer Nielsen

4 years ago

Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.38 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk <zsidelnik@gmail.com>:

>
> You can't just go the usual way like nothing happens. This is the same as if you know someone dying and say: well, I can't help with anything, so I will do nothing against it. Inaction in such cases offends people. Banner is the least possible, still useful way to help and people will know you are trying to help whatever you think you can help.

Trying to push on people's feelings is also offending, or rather
trying to weaponize it as part of your personal agenda to get what you
want.

--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net

Max Semenik

4 years ago

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:14 PM Eugene Sidelnyk <zsidelnik@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe we'd create an RFC, create an poll and decide this way?

Each of these options would require some time, and time is something not we
don't have plenty of. If such a banner appears two weeks from now, how much
sense would it make? Can at least we agree on something uncontroversial,
like a banner encouraging people to donate to humanitarian efforts?

--
Best regards,
Max Semenik

Vasilii Shpilchin

4 years ago

There's no such thing as 70% support of Putin. A people from ouside of
Russia has no chance to understand the internal situation. As a russian
living in USA I must say, any (any) mainstream media to fake the Russia's
image, more or less. But russian people is under pressure for many years,
internal economy is weak for many years, human rights are nearly
eliminated. Russia is also a federation of many nations. Please, do not
connect majority of russian people with this agression. In that country
people has much less power than you can think living in a free country.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 12:57 PM Eugene Sidelnyk <zsidelnik@gmail.com> wrote:

Girgias

4 years ago

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 09:31, Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

There is no one who can make such a call on whether or not to make a
statement on behalf of PHP.
PHP is not owned by anyone, we don't even have a steering committee
compared to other languages who *might* be able to make such a call.
PHP's development is extremely distributed, for better or for worse.

This is in stark contrast to a project like Symfony (a product "owned" by
SensioLabs) who can make such a call.
Even other projects which have a more distinct leadership haven't said
anything, so I don't see how a project which has no clear leadership can do
so.

On the fact: "not saying anything is also taking a stance", I think nobody
here disagrees with this, but that's not the issue.
The issue is: who gets to decide when and what and how PHP says something
about a matter unrelated to PHP.
There *might* be a tenuous argument to be made that the PHP Group which
allegedly holds the copyright to PHP should be the ones to decide this.
However, I don't think most of us would want to go down that route.

The only way PHP decides on anything is via the RFC process, and although
it has been used for process/policy related discussion (e.g. voting RFC,
naming of PHP 6/7)
I personally don't think it is the best medium to make such decisions, but
introducing any other process would need to be discussed and voted via the
current RFC mechanism.

Moreover, at the time of writing this, none of the following programming
languages have any messages in regards to the war:
- Python (https://www.python.org/)
- TypeScript (https://www.typescriptlang.org/)
- Rust (https://www.rust-lang.org/)
- Ruby (https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/)
- C# (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/)
- Scala (https://www.scala-lang.org/)
- Kotlin (https://kotlinlang.org/) [which is developed by JetBrains who
*have* taken an open stance against the war]
- Golang (https://go.dev/)
- ECMAScript/JavaScrip (
https://www.ecma-international.org/technical-committees/tc39/)
- Julia (https://julialang.org/)
- R (https://www.r-project.org/)
- C and C++ (https://www.iso.org)
- Perl (https://www.perl.org/)
- Raku (https://raku.org/)

Obviously this list is not exhaustive (and if there is one which has
messaging do let me know),
but as other - popular - programing languages (some having something more
akin to "leaders") haven't added any messaging against the conflit,
it makes me extremely wary about PHP doing it first when we don't have the
maintainers bandwidth to deal with whatever might come after such a
decision.

Kindly,

George P. Banyard

Paul

4 years ago

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 8:51 PM G. P. B. <george.banyard@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Moreover, at the time of writing this, none of the following programming
> languages have any messages in regards to the war:
> - Python (https://www.python.org/)
> - TypeScript (https://www.typescriptlang.org/)
> - Rust (https://www.rust-lang.org/)

I know at least Rust[1] does, dunno about the others.

[1] https://blog.rust-lang.org/2022/02/24/Rust-1.59.0.html

Good Guy

4 years ago

Please read post in HTML to see the main message!!

--

With over 1.7 billion devices now running Windows 10/11, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

Michael Morris

4 years ago

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 3:31 AM Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

This original post has been met with some controversy. I don't know how
much my voice counts, but I will say this.

The occasions in history where one side is utterly and completely in the
wrong are rare, but they do occur. Russia had no right to invade - period.
Attempts on this list have been made to justify Russia's actions, but they
are logically tortured as the Nazi justifications for invading Poland or
Soviet Russia.

Speaking of the Nazis, even Hitler didn't stoop so low as to send in troops
utterly unprepared for what they were about to face while lying to them
that they'd be lauded as heroes. Neither did Stalin.  Putin has done that.

Now, you can try to justify certain things. You can try to justify Putin's
War, but you will never convince anyone of your position - you can only
succeed in proving yourself to be evil. Evil is the complete absence of
compassion for the suffering of others, and only someone who is evil can
advocate for Putin's War or try to justify it in any measure.

Evil is a powerful word - one I do not use lightly. When one side calls
another evil they say that there can be no more dialog, no more compromise,
no more cooperation. The only correct response to evil is opposition.

Chase Peeler

4 years ago

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 8:53 PM Michael Morris <tendoaki@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 3:31 AM Victor Bolshov <crocodile2u@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello internals.
> >
> > In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> > of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> > to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> > aggression.
> >
> > I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> > the header of php.net website.
> >
> > Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> > lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> > still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> > that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> > the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> >
> > This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> > an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> > <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
> >
> > Say NO to war!
> >
>
> This original post has been met with some controversy. I don't know how
> much my voice counts, but I will say this.
>
> The occasions in history where one side is utterly and completely in the
> wrong are rare, but they do occur. Russia had no right to invade - period.
> Attempts on this list have been made to justify Russia's actions, but they
> are logically tortured as the Nazi justifications for invading Poland or
> Soviet Russia.

Maybe I missed them, but I don’t recall anyone justifying Russias actions.
Can you cite them please?

>
> Speaking of the Nazis, even Hitler didn't stoop so low as to send in troops
> utterly unprepared for what they were about to face while lying to them
> that they'd be lauded as heroes. Neither did Stalin.  Putin has done that.
>
> Now, you can try to justify certain things. You can try to justify Putin's
> War, but you will never convince anyone of your position - you can only
> succeed in proving yourself to be evil. Evil is the complete absence of
> compassion for the suffering of others, and only someone who is evil can
> advocate for Putin's War or try to justify it in any measure.
>
> Evil is a powerful word - one I do not use lightly. When one side calls
> another evil they say that there can be no more dialog, no more compromise,
> no more cooperation. The only correct response to evil is opposition.
>

--
Chase Peeler
chasepeeler@gmail.com