RIP PHP 4?

David Coallier

19 years ago

+1

On 7/6/07, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

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Tijnema !

19 years ago

On 7/6/07, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

+1

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Vesselin Kenashkov

19 years ago

-1
Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just makes no
sense to drop the support. I see (and understand) both the desire of the
developers and the objective reasons for the rush on the new versions, and I
would propose to drop php4 when php6 is out. Then, probably, because of the
new features in v6 the v4 users will consider migration (and then will
become obvious that php4 soon will be and has to be dropped).
So I would vote +1 if it was not "at the end of the year" but instead, "when
php6 is released" (or if you have strict plan to do this release before the
end of this year, then count my vote as +1).

Robert Cummings

19 years ago

On Fri, 2007-07-06 at 17:51 +0300, Vesselin Kenashkov wrote:

> -1
> Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
> list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just makes no
> sense to drop the support. I see (and understand) both the desire of the
> developers and the objective reasons for the rush on the new versions, and I
> would propose to drop php4 when php6 is out. Then, probably, because of the
> new features in v6 the v4 users will consider migration (and then will
> become obvious that php4 soon will be and has to be dropped).
> So I would vote +1 if it was not "at the end of the year" but instead, "when
> php6 is released" (or if you have strict plan to do this release before the
> end of this year, then count my vote as +1).

+1

Because as Derick mentioned, there would still be security fixes.

Cheers,
Rob.

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William A. Rowe, Jr.

19 years ago

Vesselin Kenashkov wrote:

> -1
> Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
> list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just
> makes no sense to drop the support.

This is a very old and tired argument, and pretty much is exactly where
Apache httpd was, with respect to 1.3, at a similar timeframe.

Folks find it to easy to stay with what they have installed.  And even
once 4.4 'ends', you will still have security patches (as mentioned)
to keep them safe, if they even bother the patch/update.  Adoption will
be slow.

But it doesn't justify leaving the developers dug in the sands trying
to move changes back to 4.4.  If they want the glitz, jazz and even the
most up to date bug fixes, they'll have to come along for the ride.

Take care of your *developers*, and your users will have a platform they
can appreciate and enjoy.  Focus on acting like a BigCo and you will sap
the developers' time and energy.

Vesselin Kenashkov

19 years ago

I agree (this is why wrote "I see (and understand) both the desire of the
developers and the objective reasons..") and I do not want to start this
topic again. The move is inevitable.

But please take a look what Rasmus said:
"I'm breaking your vote only rule.  I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes.  That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?"

I totally agree with him. So there must be a definition what exactly is
being "dropped" (or actually just a message will be added on the hope page
wihtout policy change?).

And my point in the previous message was that after having php6 released,
there will be at least two reasons - the new version will have obvious
advantages, and as well the new version number will be 6, which
automatically even without announce means that v4 will be phased out. I am
not deep into the php internals and policies, but do you consider direct
php4->php6 migration? Any comments?

But I agree - if you want to speed up the migration - it is a good idea to
place an announcement on the home page like "PHP v4 is being phased out. New
versions will not be released after xx/xx/2007/8 ... "


Vesselin Kenashkov

On 7/6/07, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wrowe@rowe-clan.net> wrote:

Oliver Block

19 years ago

Hello Vesselin,

what is the source of your numbers?

Best Regards,

Oliver

Vesselin Kenashkov schrieb:

Tomas Kuliavas

19 years ago

Looks close to

http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/16987-php_stats_evolution_for_april_2007.php

Vesselin Kenashkov

19 years ago

On 7/6/07, Oliver Block <lists@block-online.org> wrote:

>
> Hello Vesselin,
>
> what is the source of your numbers?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Oliver
>
>
> Vesselin Kenashkov schrieb:
> > -1
> > Because the majority of the installation (somebody two month ago in this
> > list mentioned that php 5 has just 10% adoption) is still php4 just
> > makes no
> > sense to drop the support.
>
>

I can not find the specific message...
But googling I found this:
http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/php_stats_evolution_for_november_2006.php
So as of november 2006  the php5 adoption was slightly above 12%. Having the
time passed since (and looking on the graphics - 8% per year), we can guess
that now it is close to 20%. If this speed keeps constant in time even the
50% will be passed in years (probably 2)... So the php4 users must be
encouraged (in the proper way ;) ) to migrate.
End of the offtopic.

I just want to rise again my question - do you think that php4->php6
migration will possible/popular? Is there a strong reason preventing this?
So this gets back to the point to bind the php4 EOL date with php6 release
cycle.

Vesselin Kenashkov

Rodrigo Moraes

19 years ago

2007/7/7, Vesselin Kenashkov <kenashkov@gmail.com>:

> So as of november 2006  the php5 adoption was slightly above 12%. Having the
> time passed since (and looking on the graphics - 8% per year), we can guess
> that now it is close to 20%.

well done, you guessed it right. see the same stats for june:

http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/17283-php_statistics_for_june_2007.php

php4 - 80,34%
php5 - 19,25%

:)

-- rodrigo moraes

Johannes Schlueter

19 years ago

Hi,

On Sat, 2007-07-07 at 11:00 +0300, Vesselin Kenashkov wrote:

> I can not find the specific message...
> But googling I found this:
> http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/php_stats_evolution_for_november_2006.php
> So as of november 2006  the php5 adoption was slightly above 12%. Having the

With such figures you have to keep in mind that a) it does also count
systems not really maintained and b) only systems with expose_php on
which are available on the internet, not intranet hosts. I have
statistics showing me that 59.2% of the people who install a recent
version of phpMyFAQ, which is some random average, free available, PHP
application, do this on PHP 5. (here you have too keep in mind that this
includes people who install it, maybe for testing, on a local windows
box and all... ah and it only counts data from people who agree sending
it). Once I have the time, I'll sit down and make some deeper analysis
of the data I have.

The key point is: Statistics can show quite different numbers, so don't
overrate them.

johannes

Vesselin Kenashkov

19 years ago

On 7/7/07, Johannes Schlüter <johannes@php.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Sat, 2007-07-07 at 11:00 +0300, Vesselin Kenashkov wrote:
> > I can not find the specific message...
> > But googling I found this:
> >
> http://www.nexen.net/chiffres_cles/phpversion/php_stats_evolution_for_november_2006.php
> > So as of november 2006  the php5 adoption was slightly above 12%. Having
> the
>
> With such figures you have to keep in mind that a) it does also count
> systems not really maintained and b) only systems with expose_php on
> which are available on the internet, not intranet hosts. I have
> statistics showing me that 59.2% of the people who install a recent
> version of phpMyFAQ, which is some random average, free available, PHP
> application, do this on PHP 5. (here you have too keep in mind that this
> includes people who install it, maybe for testing, on a local windows
> box and all... ah and it only counts data from people who agree sending
> it). Once I have the time, I'll sit down and make some deeper analysis
> of the data I have.
>
> The key point is: Statistics can show quite different numbers, so don't
> overrate them.
>
> johannes

I agree about the statistics. I posted this just because Oliver asked...

My thought  about php4->php6 migration was that when php6 is out to
encourage (or more correctly said almost enforce - with the proper
announcement for EOL on the php.net) the php4 users to upgrade directly to
php6. This way the php6 adoption could be much faster than php5 one.
It will be just obvious for everybody still using php4 that he has to
upgrade - then why to upgrade to php5 while he can upgrade to php6?
So please give your opinions on this.

Vesselin Kenashkov

Mark Evans

19 years ago

> My thought  about php4->php6 migration was that when php6 is out to
> encourage (or more correctly said almost enforce - with the proper
> announcement for EOL on the php.net) the php4 users to upgrade directly to
> php6. This way the php6 adoption could be much faster than php5 one.
> It will be just obvious for everybody still using php4 that he has to
> upgrade - then why to upgrade to php5 while he can upgrade to php6?
> So please give your opinions on this.

I dont think this is a good idea and is unlikely to happen in the real
world.

IMO we should push users to first get onto PHP5 now that its stable enough
to be used, then look at gently nudging users to PHP 6 about a year after
its be released. When PHP 6 has been out 3 years look a nudging people
running PHP 5 a little harder to migrate. Although AFAICS the unicode
implementation issues (see the unicode semantics thread) is likely to be a
key issue to get people to migrate up to PHP6 so the less painful it can be
made the better.

Regards

Marco

chris#

19 years ago

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:18:29 +0200, Marco <markright@gmail.com> wrote:

>> My thought  about php4->php6 migration was that when php6 is out to
>> encourage (or more correctly said almost enforce - with the proper
>> announcement for EOL on the php.net) the php4 users to upgrade directly
> to
>> php6. This way the php6 adoption could be much faster than php5 one.
>> It will be just obvious for everybody still using php4 that he has to
>> upgrade - then why to upgrade to php5 while he can upgrade to php6?
>> So please give your opinions on this.
>
>
> I dont think this is a good idea and is unlikely to happen in the real
> world.
>
> IMO we should push users to first get onto PHP5 now that its stable enough
> to be used, then look at gently nudging users to PHP 6 about a year after
> its be released. When PHP 6 has been out 3 years look a nudging people
> running PHP 5 a little harder to migrate. Although AFAICS the unicode
> implementation issues (see the unicode semantics thread) is likely to be a
> key issue

FWIW The boxen I get my mail on is running PHP4 and I have absolutely
no trouble with unicode support in my mail (to or from).

> to get people to migrate up to PHP6 so the less painful it can
> be
> made the better.
>
> Regards
>
> Marco

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Alexey Zakhlestin

19 years ago

On 7/9/07, chris# <chris#@codewarehouse.net> wrote:

> FWIW The boxen I get my mail on is running PHP4 and I have absolutely
> no trouble with unicode support in my mail (to or from).

did you try sorting? comparison between string which use different
unicode-normalisation forms?
I guess that wouldn't work well

--
Alexey Zakhlestin
http://blog.milkfarmsoft.com/

Mark Evans

19 years ago

Stefan Priebsch

19 years ago

Vesselin Kenashkov schrieb:

> announcement for EOL on the php.net) the php4 users to upgrade directly to
> php6. This way the php6 adoption could be much faster than php5 one.
> So please give your opinions on this.

I'd say this is not a good idea because PHP6 will/should/hopefully does
introduce some backwards compatibility breaks (like removed php.ini
options). So migrating from PHP4 to PHP5 first seems a better way to go,
at least for troublesome code.

Kind regards,

Stefan

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Antony Dovgal

19 years ago

On 06.07.2007 18:32, Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!

+1

(goes celebrating..)

--
Wbr,
Antony Dovgal

Jeremy Privett

19 years ago

+1

-----Original Message-----
From: Derick Rethans [mailto:derick@php.net]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:33 AM
To: PHP Developers Mailing List
Subject: [PHP-DEV] RIP PHP 4?

Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,

With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the

end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
allowed)!

regards,
Derick

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Alain Williams

19 years ago

On Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 04:32:50PM +0200, Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!

+1

--
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Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
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Jani Taskinen

19 years ago

+1

Derick Rethans kirjoitti:

Richard Quadling

19 years ago

On 06/07/07, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick

+1

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-----
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Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=ZEND002498&r=213474731
"Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!"

Sebastian Bergmann

19 years ago

Derick Rethans schrieb:

> Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are allowed)!

+1

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Scott MacVicar

19 years ago

Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick
>

+1

(It's been a long time coming.)

Scott

Lester Caine

19 years ago

Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!

+1

--
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Johannes Schlueter

19 years ago

+1

On Fri, 2007-07-06 at 16:32 +0200, Derick Rethans wrote:

Rasmus Lerdorf

19 years ago

Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!

I'm breaking your vote only rule.  I don't really understand what
dropping support means if we will still release security fixes.  That's
the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
the end of the year?

Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3.  No new releases
for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
quo seems odd to me.

-Rasmus

Antony Dovgal

19 years ago

On 06.07.2007 19:07, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

> I'm breaking your vote only rule.  I don't really understand what
> dropping support means if we will still release security fixes.  That's
> the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
> the end of the year?
>
> Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3.  No new releases
> for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
> Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
> quo seems odd to me.

To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the bugtracker
which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5" and close all PHP4 only reports.

So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security problems.
And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.

--
Wbr,
Antony Dovgal

Rasmus Lerdorf

19 years ago

Antony Dovgal wrote:

> On 06.07.2007 19:07, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
>> I'm breaking your vote only rule.  I don't really understand what
>> dropping support means if we will still release security fixes.  That's
>> the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
>> the end of the year?
>>
>> Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3.  No new releases
>> for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
>> Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
>> quo seems odd to me.
>
> To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
> bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5"
> and close all PHP4 only reports.
>
> So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
> problems.
> And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.

When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix?

My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when
we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing.

I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
which means no new releases of any sort.  We could still say
security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
something like that.

-Rasmus

Antony Dovgal

19 years ago

On 06.07.2007 19:58, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

>> To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
>> bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5"
>> and close all PHP4 only reports.
>>
>> So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
>> problems.
>> And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.
>
> When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix?

Doesn't matter, we still have many of PHP4-only reports which nobody is going to look in anyway.
Also it wasn't that long ago:
- Fixed bug #38798 (OpenSSL init corrected in php5 but not in php4). (Tony)

> My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when
> we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing.

Well, I explained what should change in the first place - no more PHP4 reports.
If you're unable to reproduce it with PHP5 - sorry, we can't help you.

> I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
> which means no new releases of any sort.  We could still say
> security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
> something like that.

Yup, that's exactly what I said in my e-mail.

--
Wbr,
Antony Dovgal

David Coallier

19 years ago

On 7/6/07, Antony Dovgal <antony@zend.com> wrote:

> On 06.07.2007 19:58, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
> >> To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
> >> bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5"
> >> and close all PHP4 only reports.
> >>
> >> So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
> >> problems.
> >> And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.
> >
> > When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix?
>
> Doesn't matter, we still have many of PHP4-only reports which nobody is going to look in anyway.
> Also it wasn't that long ago:
> - Fixed bug #38798 (OpenSSL init corrected in php5 but not in php4). (Tony)
>
> > My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when
> > we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing.
>
> Well, I explained what should change in the first place - no more PHP4 reports.
> If you're unable to reproduce it with PHP5 - sorry, we can't help you.
>
> > I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
> > which means no new releases of any sort.  We could still say
> > security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
> > something like that.
>

Well the initial question was to drop it but not kill it, if there
would be another vote for killing it completely, I am totally 100% for
it. 21st century... moving on.

> Yup, that's exactly what I said in my e-mail.
>
> --
> Wbr,
> Antony Dovgal
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

--
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Founder & Software Architect,
Agora Production (http://agoraproduction.com)
51.42.06.70.18

Jani Taskinen

19 years ago

Nevermind the wording, just as soon as we just put a notice on php.net that the
"end is near, prepare yourselves" the sooner hosting companies, etc. realize the
end is really near.. :)

I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this year and
focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another issue altogether.

--Jani

Rasmus Lerdorf kirjoitti:

Stanislav Malyshev

19 years ago

> I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this year
> and focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another issue
> altogether.

We already are focused on 5/6. When the last time on the list was
anything php 4 discussed that wasn't security fix? Almost all the
discussion now is PHP 5/6.

--
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com   http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829   MSN: stas@zend.com

Jani Taskinen

19 years ago

So why keep supporting PHP 4 then?

Stanislav Malyshev kirjoitti:

Stanislav Malyshev

19 years ago

> So why keep supporting PHP 4 then?

Because people still use it. Yes, I know it's circular argument, but I
don't think we should break the circle just yet. I think the best would
be to have phase out plan (which should be officially out - like on
php.net etc. - ASAP) which would give enough time (like a year or more)
for everybody to move. And I know year seems very long time, but for
moving big project it isn't that long.

--
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com   http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829   MSN: stas@zend.com

Guilherme Blanco

19 years ago

+1

I thought you're doing it too late. PHP5 was released in 2004 and
until now the adoption is very slow. If you don't break PHP4 support
and "force" companies to update it to PHP5, the reason for existence
of PHP5 is useless.
Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?

I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4
for a long time.
If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be
resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be
greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is
a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found"
the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid
of being hacked.
Ok, maybe I'm divagating too much, but you can't say that keeping PHP4
support is not one of the reasons for companies not update.

My suggestion is that you notify everybody through a main php.net news
inclusion to update them that you will be killing PHP4 support at the
end of the year. It's good, clear and everyone knows you're already
working on another version of PHP. So, why keep mantainance of 3 PHP
versions?

That's what I have to say. =)

Cheers,

On 7/6/07, Jani Taskinen <jani.taskinen@sci.fi> wrote:
> So why keep supporting PHP 4 then?
>
> Stanislav Malyshev kirjoitti:
> >> I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this
> >> year and focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another
> >> issue altogether.
> >
> > We already are focused on 5/6. When the last time on the list was
> > anything php 4 discussed that wasn't security fix? Almost all the
> > discussion now is PHP 5/6.
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

-- 
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
São Carlos - SP/Brazil

Mark Evans

19 years ago

> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?

I think we have all asked that very same question and the answer is a mix of
a few standard issues. The hard part has always been deciding how to move it
forward. Without the customers demanding change hosts wont do it, without
the hosts support application developers are reluctant to move to PHP 5 only
versions.

One of the issue's cited was lack of popular opensource projects supporting
PHP 5, maybe we should all encourage our favorite packages to sign up to
http://gophp5.org/ as this seems like an interesting idea on how to speed up
the migration.

Regards

Marco

Larry Garfield

19 years ago

Marco wrote:

>> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
>
>
> I think we have all asked that very same question and the answer is a mix
> of a few standard issues. The hard part has always been deciding how to
> move it forward. Without the customers demanding change hosts wont do it,
> without the hosts support application developers are reluctant to move to
> PHP 5 only versions.
>
> One of the issue's cited was lack of popular opensource projects
> supporting PHP 5, maybe we should all encourage our favorite packages to
> sign up to http://gophp5.org/ as this seems like an interesting idea on
> how to speed up the migration.
>
> Regards
>
> Marco

Thanks for the mention, Marco. :-)

Yes, there is a growing push from open source projects to drop PHP 4 support
anyway.  By this time next year I expect that the majority of the major
projects to all require PHP 5 or doing so very soon.  This would be a very
good time to announce the pending end of PHP 4 support, whatever the date
for it is.

On the subject of stats, something else I've run across while moderating web
hosts for GoPHP5 listing is that there are zillions that offer PHP 5.  Many
offer PHP 5 and PHP 4, including the really big hosts, defaulting to PHP 4
with an .htaccess toggle (or similar) to get to PHP 5.  Most people don't
use that, however, because the apps they're using only require PHP 4
(because the developers believe PHP 4 is too prevalent).  My gut feeling at
this point is that deprecating PHP 4 is not as onerous as it might seem
just from the Nexen stats; the hosts are already ready.

Oh yes, and hi list!

--
Larry Garfield                  AIM: LOLG42
larry@garfieldtech.com          ICQ: 6817012

chris#

19 years ago

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:01:22 +0200, Marco <markright@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
>
>
> I think we have all asked that very same question and the answer is a mix
> of
> a few standard issues.

I will venture to say that the biggest issue was; no transition period.
That is to say that PHP4 and PHP5 are two completely different creatures.
There was no "morphing" period. After several years of working with PHP3/4 in
this fashion, /suddenly/ most of those rules no longer applied (in PHP5).
You've got millions - perhaps billions of lines of code that have to be nearly
completely rewritten to be usable in PHP5. Perhaps a better solution would be to
document an answer to running PHP4, PHP5, and PHP6 on the same boxen for the
most popular OS's. Then there would be little reason for anyone not to adopt
any version(s) of their choosing, and little reason to complain about an EOL.
Seems a sure answer to me.

> The hard part has always been deciding how to move
> it
> forward. Without the customers demanding change hosts wont do it, without
> the hosts support application developers are reluctant to move to PHP 5
> only
> versions.
>
> One of the issue's cited was lack of popular opensource projects
> supporting
> PHP 5, maybe we should all encourage our favorite packages to sign up to
> http://gophp5.org/ as this seems like an interesting idea on how to speed
> up
> the migration.
>
> Regards
>
> Marco

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Tomas Kuliavas

19 years ago

> I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4
> for a long time.
> If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be
> resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be
> greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is
> a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found"
> the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid
> of being hacked.

If you start lying in order to prove your point, you lose.

--
Tomas

Anton C. Swartz IV

19 years ago

I've found that to be true also. Lying to people who use your product
will only lead to the downfall of your product. Just set a deadline and
draw the hard line in the sand.
---
Anton C. Swartz IV
Phoenix Edge Network L.L.C. - *Owner*
PHPLogic Development Services – *Co-Owner*
_Based in Indianapolis, IN_

"The Opposite of war is not Peace it is Creation."

Don't let sin rule your body. After all, your body is bound to die, so
dont obey its desires or let any part of it become slave to evil. Give
yourselves to God, as people who have been raised from death to life.
Make every part of your body a slavethat pleases God. Don't let sin keep
ruling your lives.You are ruled by God's Kindness and not by the law.
_Romans 6:12-14_


Tomas Kuliavas wrote:

Guilherme Blanco

19 years ago

I was just playing with the idea, I would not like to see core team lying too.
Currently I work with both PHP versions and I had to structure all my
code to be compatible with both versions. As you all know, it's really
difficult to keep things working without any trouble on these
versions.
I am, like you all interested to see PHP5 growing in a faster adoption. =)

I was just kidding with the "issue" idea. =)

Cheers,

On 7/6/07, Tomas Kuliavas <tokul@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> > I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4
> > for a long time.
> > If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be
> > resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be
> > greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is
> > a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found"
> > the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid
> > of being hacked.
>
> If you start lying in order to prove your point, you lose.
>
> --
> Tomas
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

-- 
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
São Carlos - SP/Brazil

chris#

19 years ago

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:21:28 +0300 (EEST), "Tomas Kuliavas" <tokul@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:

>> I have my arguments. One of them is because you keep mantaining PHP4
>> for a long time.
>> If you had "found a very dangerous issue in PHP4 that could not be
>> resolved without moving to PHP5", I think the adoption would be
>> greater. Information is everything and manipulating people's fears is
>> a good way to force people to do what you want. As long as you "found"
>> the issue, too many hosting companies would drop PHP4 support afraid
>> of being hacked.
>
> If you start lying in order to prove your point, you lose.

Agreed. A very good point.

>
> --
> Tomas
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

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Sebastian Mendel

19 years ago

+1

Guilherme Blanco schrieb:

> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?

it was badly advertised!

most people don't even know how much faster it is!
to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most developers!
(of course - most people here now them)

last but not least the missing functionality to easily setup used PHP
version per directory ... giving hosters the tool to make their customers an
easy way to adopt/test their sites ...

--
Sebastian Mendel

www.sebastianmendel.de

Stut

19 years ago

Sebastian Mendel wrote:

> Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
>> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
>
> it was badly advertised!
>
> most people don't even know how much faster it is!

Is it really faster? From what I've read over the past few years the
general opinion is that it's slower. I'd be interested in any material
you have to back up that statement.

-Stut

--
http://stut.net/

Lukas Kahwe Smith

19 years ago

On 11.07.2007, at 14:06, Sebastian Mendel wrote:

> +1
>
> Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
>
>> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
>
> it was badly advertised!
>
> most people don't even know how much faster it is!
> to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most
> developers!
> (of course - most people here now them)

well actually php 5.0 was slower for many things .. objects where
slightly faster. 5.1 and now 5.2 bring the performance/quality up to
where things where with php 4 at the time.

regards,
Lukas

chris#

19 years ago

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:06:02 +0200, Sebastian Mendel <lists@sebastianmendel.de> wrote:

> +1
>
> Guilherme Blanco schrieb:
>
>> Have you ever asked yourselves... why? why PHP5's adoption is so bad?
>
> it was badly advertised!

Can't argue with that. :)

>
> most people don't even know how much faster it is!

Technically speaking, I'd have to insert a /can/ here.
On that note; has anyone done any testing/ benchmark work with graph(s) or
data reports to substantiate any of this? Seems like it would sure be /good/
advertising.

> to say nothing about of all the new features not known by most developers!

Again; a nice comparison list would sure work well. With maybe a link on php.net
pointing to it. Say --> What are the differences between PHP4 and PHP5 --> link
to feature difference chart. Or --> performance gains using PHP5 --> link to
statistical analysis numbers/graphs/data.

> (of course - most people here now them)

:)

>
> last but not least the missing functionality to easily setup used PHP
> version per directory ... giving hosters the tool to make their customers
> an
> easy way to adopt/test their sites ...

Speaking of such things; if anyone was willing to provide me a decent outline
for accomplishing this, I'd be willing to do a work-up on the analysis mentioned
above. Not to mention; document my experience and steps to accomplish the
"parallel" install.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

>
>
> --
> Sebastian Mendel
>
> www.sebastianmendel.de
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
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chris#

19 years ago

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:53:58 +0300, Jani Taskinen <jani.taskinen@sci.fi> wrote:

> So why keep supporting PHP 4 then?
>

Why keep "top posting"? It makes no sense.

> Stanislav Malyshev kirjoitti:
>>> I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this
>>> year and focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another
>>> issue altogether.
>>
>> We already are focused on 5/6. When the last time on the list was
>> anything php 4 discussed that wasn't security fix? Almost all the
>> discussion now is PHP 5/6.
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

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chris#

19 years ago

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:30:06 +0300, Jani Taskinen <jani.taskinen@sci.fi> wrote:

> Nevermind the wording, just as soon as we just put a notice on php.net that
> the
> "end is near, prepare yourselves" the sooner hosting companies, etc.
> realize the
> end is really near.. :)
>
> I'd be more for dropping all support whatsoever by the end of this year
> and
> focus totally on PHP 5/6. Critical security fixes are another issue
> altogether.
>
> --Jani

By most mailing list standards this is considered "top posting" and a no, no.
But in order to respond to /your/ response, I'm forced to follow it, which continues
to place the the responses out of context. :(

OK. I can't help but notice the overall underwhelming reception to PHP5 (mostly by ISP's).
Which begs the question /why/? Shouldn't /that/ be the question? Or maybe I should ask:
Has anybody bothered to find out why the majority of PHP installers /prefer/ PHP4? I am
quite sure that if those questions were answered, the poll you are attempting to take
now would be moot. Don't you?

P.S. Sorry for top posting. But my mail client doesn't provide for rearranging the order
to correct a previous top posting.

>
> Rasmus Lerdorf kirjoitti:
>> Antony Dovgal wrote:
>>> On 06.07.2007 19:07, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
>>>> I'm breaking your vote only rule.  I don't really understand what
>>>> dropping support means if we will still release security fixes.
> That's
>>>> the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
>>>> the end of the year?
>>>>
>>>> Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3.  No new
> releases
>>>> for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
>>>> Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
>>>> quo seems odd to me.
>>> To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to
> the
>>> bugtracker which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install
> PHP5"
>>> and close all PHP4 only reports.
>>>
>>> So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
>>> problems.
>>> And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.
>>
>> When was the last time we did a PHP4-only bug fix?
>>
>> My fear is that the impact of the no-more-support statement is hurt when
>> we qualify it with the fact that nothing is really changing.
>>
>> I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
>> which means no new releases of any sort.  We could still say
>> security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
>> something like that.
>>
>> -Rasmus
>>
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
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Larry Garfield

19 years ago

On Monday 09 July 2007, chris# wrote:

>  OK. I can't help but notice the overall underwhelming reception to PHP5
> (mostly by ISP's). Which begs the question /why/? Shouldn't /that/ be the
> question? Or maybe I should ask: Has anybody bothered to find out why the
> majority of PHP installers /prefer/ PHP4? I am quite sure that if those
> questions were answered, the poll you are attempting to take now would be
> moot. Don't you?

I don't claim to have made a scientific study of the subject, but from what
I've seen so far web hosts fall into one of the following categories:

1) We offer PHP 5 only.
2) We offer PHP 5 and PHP 4 as an option if you ask/tweak .htaccess.
3) We offer PHP 4 and PHP 5 as an option if you ask/tweak .htaccess.
4) We offer PHP 4 and PHP 5, and you explicitly pick one when signing up.
5) We don't offer PHP 5 yet because we haven't figured out how to do that in
cPanel and we're afraid of breaking stuff.

I've actually been pleasantly surprised to find that group 5 seems to be a
minority.  There's a fair number of hosts in groups 3 and 4 that, I think,
artificially deflate PHP 5's numbers.  That's made developers gun-shy.

How are the Nexen stats compiled?  Johannes has said that he "has statistics"
showing that PHP 5 has 60% of the market, not 20%.

Quoth Ben Franklin, "there are likes, damned lies, and statistics."  But at
this point I don't think the situation is as dire as everyone seems to think.
The huge flood of hosts we had signing up with GoPHP5 in the first day,
combined with the other hosts I've spoken to, suggest that simple inertia is
the problem at this point, not simply "no hosts offer it".

--
Larry Garfield			AIM: LOLG42
larry@garfieldtech.com		ICQ: 6817012

"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea,
which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to
himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession
of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."  -- Thomas
Jefferson

chris#

19 years ago

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:52:27 -0500, Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com> wrote:

> On Monday 09 July 2007, chris# wrote:
>>  OK. I can't help but notice the overall underwhelming reception to PHP5
>> (mostly by ISP's). Which begs the question /why/? Shouldn't /that/ be
> the
>> question? Or maybe I should ask: Has anybody bothered to find out why
> the
>> majority of PHP installers /prefer/ PHP4? I am quite sure that if those
>> questions were answered, the poll you are attempting to take now would
> be
>> moot. Don't you?
>
> I don't claim to have made a scientific study of the subject, but from
> what
> I've seen so far web hosts fall into one of the following categories:
>
> 1) We offer PHP 5 only.
> 2) We offer PHP 5 and PHP 4 as an option if you ask/tweak .htaccess.
> 3) We offer PHP 4 and PHP 5 as an option if you ask/tweak .htaccess.
> 4) We offer PHP 4 and PHP 5, and you explicitly pick one when signing up.
> 5) We don't offer PHP 5 yet because we haven't figured out how to do that
> in
> cPanel and we're afraid of breaking stuff.

Hello, and thanks for taking the time to respond.

>
> I've actually been pleasantly surprised to find that group 5 seems to be a
> minority.  There's a fair number of hosts in groups 3 and 4 that, I think,
> artificially deflate PHP 5's numbers.  That's made developers gun-shy.

I have noticed a growing trend to offer both. Frankly, I think that you're
correct in #5 being in the (growing) minority. But I believe this is all due
to the lack of how-to/documentation for providing a reliable process to run multiple
versions of PHP on the same boxen. Truth be known; I spent two entire days
searching for a reliable and straight-forward approach to doing just that.
The closest thing I discovered in meeting that goal was running two PHP
installs in two different directories (PHP4 as base install in default dir: php
and PHP5 in same $prefix but in php5 dir) then running php as Apache lib and
assigning libphp5.so to PHP5 enabled folder (or extension - .php5) and assigning
libphp4.so as default and for .php. This works fine for *BSD because of the
way *BSD loads libraries. But not so for most other *NIX like OS's - most
notably Linux. So, while this method will work fine for me and my 50+ *BSD
server farm. It isn't /even/ a good "generic" method for the Internet at large.
Probably the best solution would be for one of the seasoned developers whom
undoubtedly runs more than one version on his/her boxen as a necessity, to
share their experience in achieving this working environment. Better still; posting
this prominently on the front page of the php.net site (or the documentation page).
That way it would eliminate (or nearly) all fear of offering more (or all) versions
of PHP, and PHP4 would simply fade away as ppl can more easily migrate to 5, or 6
without giving it a second thought.

>
> How are the Nexen stats compiled?  Johannes has said that he "has
> statistics"
> showing that PHP 5 has 60% of the market, not 20%.
>
> Quoth Ben Franklin, "there are likes, damned lies, and statistics."  But
> at
> this point I don't think the situation is as dire as everyone seems to
> think.
> The huge flood of hosts we had signing up with GoPHP5 in the first day,
> combined with the other hosts I've spoken to, suggest that simple inertia
> is
> the problem at this point, not simply "no hosts offer it".

I would also contend that there is also an incentive to listing their site
on your page, as it gives them higher visibility. :) This, of course skews
the results.

Thanks again for the response.

>
> --
> Larry Garfield			AIM: LOLG42
> larry@garfieldtech.com		ICQ: 6817012
>
> "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
> exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea,
> which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to
> himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the
> possession
> of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."  --
> Thomas
> Jefferson
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
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Christopher Jones

19 years ago

Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

> I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
> which means no new releases of any sort.  We could still say
> security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
> something like that.

+1

The final PHP 4 patch date should be relative to the release date of
PHP 6, e.g. 6 months after PHP 6 is released.

--
Christopher Jones, Oracle
Email: christopher.jones@oracle.com    Tel:  +1 650 506 8630
Blog:  http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/   PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad

Guilherme Blanco

19 years ago

On 7/6/07, Christopher Jones <christopher.jones@oracle.com> wrote:
> Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
>
>  > I'd be more in favour of a statement that put a final death date on it
>  > which means no new releases of any sort.  We could still say
>  > security-fixes only by the end of the year and then death by 08/08/08 or
>  > something like that.
>
> +1
>
> The final PHP 4 patch date should be relative to the release date of
> PHP 6, e.g. 6 months after PHP 6 is released.

If you do this, what is the reason for PHP5 existance?
So, I would just move from PHP4 to PHP6.

PHP5 was something that should be erased from everyone's mind?
PHP6 adoption will be slow because you'll keep PHP5 support for a
longer time and etc, etc, etc.

The point here is how much time should you support an older version?
IMHO, the ideal time is 2 years. One year to stable the version
(remembering from first versions of PHP5) and another year for
projects being updated (considering big projects here).
As you can see, PHP4 is being supported for 3 years after the launch of PHP5.

>
> --
> Christopher Jones, Oracle
> Email: christopher.jones@oracle.com    Tel:  +1 650 506 8630
> Blog:  http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/   PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

-- 
Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com
URL: http://blog.bisna.com
São Carlos - SP/Brazil

Mark Evans

19 years ago

> To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
> bugtracker
> which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5" and close
> all PHP4 only reports.
>
> So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
> problems.
> And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.

Also I would suggest removing links to PHP4 downloads away from the front
page on the php.net site and maybe put them onto the museum site?

Regards

Marco

Alain Williams

19 years ago

On Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 07:57:15PM +0200, Marco wrote:

> >To me it means in the first place that we can add a canned answer to the
> >bugtracker
> >which would say "PHP4 is not supported anymore, install PHP5" and close
> >all PHP4 only reports.
> >
> >So no bug-fixes, no releases except for ones fixing critical security
> >problems.
> >And even that should be ceased either in say.. 1 or 2 years.
>
>
> Also I would suggest removing links to PHP4 downloads away from the front
> page on the php.net site and maybe put them onto the museum site?

+1 -- to the suggestion of moving links to be from the museum site.

--
Alain Williams
Linux Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
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Evert | Rooftop

19 years ago

My 2 cents:

Before you guys are making any changes in the maintenance process, I
think the end goal (dropping PHP4 support) can happen a lot smoother
with good communication. You can start today by stating really clear on
www.php.net that PHP4 support is going to be dropped in the future and
considered 'old',

also to Marco's point .. putting the downloads in the museum site will
be a really clear statement even though you don't actually have to drop
support for PHP4 till some time in the future..

Reading other people's comments it looks like getting people to switch
to PHP5, but also remain faithful and supporting to your community is
dear to people. The first step to achieve both is to change your
communication, not the actual maintenance process.

Evert


Marco wrote:

Derick Rethans

19 years ago

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

> Derick Rethans wrote:
> > Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
> >
> > With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> > trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> > end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> > issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> > the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> > mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> > more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> > allowed)!
>
> I'm breaking your vote only rule.  I don't really understand what
> dropping support means if we will still release security fixes.  That's
> the mode we have been in for at least a year, so what would change at
> the end of the year?

Actually, that's not the current mode. Normal bug fixes are backported
as well at this moment. Dropping support would mean that we won't do
that anymore.

> Dropping support to me means PHP 4 becomes like PHP 3.  No new releases
> for any reason, and I don't think we can realistically do that yet.
> Saying we are dropping support and then continuing on with the status
> quo seems odd to me.

Besides it not being totally the same, I think that giving out a
statement "No more bug fixes after 2007-12-31" and "No more security
fixes after 2008-08-08" gives a *very* clear statement that it's the end
for PHP 4. That will perhaps drive the increase of PHP 5.2 support, and
that should be our main goal as we can not keep supporting PHP 4 for
ever.

regards,
Derick

Anton C. Swartz IV

19 years ago

+1
---
Anton C. Swartz IV
Phoenix Edge Network L.L.C. - *Owner*
PHPLogic Development Services – *Co-Owner*
_Based in Indianapolis, IN_

"The Opposite of war is not Peace it is Creation."

Don't let sin rule your body. After all, your body is bound to die, so
dont obey its desires or let any part of it become slave to evil. Give
yourselves to God, as people who have been raised from death to life.
Make every part of your body a slavethat pleases God. Don't let sin keep
ruling your lives.You are ruled by God's Kindness and not by the law.
_Romans 6:12-14_


Derick Rethans wrote:

Brian Moon

19 years ago

Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick
>

+1

--

Brian Moon
Senior Developer
------------------------------
http://dealnews.com/
It's good to be cheap =)

Mikko Koppanen

19 years ago

+1

--
Mikko Koppanen

On 7/6/07, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:

Stanislav Malyshev

19 years ago

> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security

-1. We still need to do security fixes, and I think we still need to do
important non-security fixes too. And that's more or less what we are
doing now, so no "dropping" is possible while keeping that.

--
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com   http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829   MSN: stas@zend.com

Stefan Priebsch

19 years ago

+1

--
>e-novative> - We make IT work for you.

e-novative GmbH - HR: Amtsgericht München HRB 139407
Sitz: Wolfratshausen - GF: Dipl. Inform. Stefan Priebsch

http://www.e-novative.de

Mark Evans

19 years ago

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year.

+1

Regards

Marco

Dmitry Stogov

19 years ago

+1

Dmitry.

Ilia A.

19 years ago

+1

On 6-Jul-07, at 10:32 AM, Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4
> at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a
> slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

Ilia Alshanetsky

Gwynne Raskind

19 years ago

On Jul 6, 2007, at 10:32 AM, Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4
> at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a
> slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick

+1

-- Gwynne, Daughter of the Code
"This whole world is an asylum for the incurable."

Mike Robinson

19 years ago

Derick Rethans said:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under
> way I am trying to gauge what people feel about dropping
> support for PHP 4 at the end of this year. That does not mean
> that we will not fix security issues, we have to as the
> install base is too large, but that would be the only thing
> that would warrant a new release. I already sort of mentioned
> this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1
> are allowed)!

+1, served me well, RIP... Amen.

Best regards

Mike Robinson

Tijnema !

19 years ago

Do we also log the number of downloads of each PHP version? That would
be interesting to see how much it is downloaded, as there are a lot of
shared hosts that do not update their PHP version at all, I have a
host which is still running php-4.3.4, and doesn't want to upgrade,
and is probably going to use this for a few years, no matter if
development is going on or not.

Tijnema

--
Vote for PHP Color Coding in Gmail! -> http://gpcc.tijnema.info

scott lewis

19 years ago

On 6 Jul 2007, at 0832, Derick Rethans wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4
> at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a
> slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!

+1

Pierre Joye

19 years ago

On 7/6/07, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!

+1 if we really kill it. That means no more release. If we keep
release it, it is still maintained like what we did until now (99.99%
sec fixes only).

--Pierre

chris#

19 years ago

-1

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:32:50 +0200 (CEST), Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Service provided by hitOmeter.NET internet messaging!
.

boots

19 years ago

> On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:32:50 +0200 (CEST), Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>
> wrote:
> > Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
> >
> > With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> > trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> > end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> > issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> > the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> > mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> > more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> > allowed)!
> >
> > regards,
> > Derick

-1

I'm pro PHP5, but I think PHP4 deserves to be fully supported as long as users
still depend on it.



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Joseph Crawford

19 years ago

+1

On 7/6/07, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:

>
> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>
> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4 at the
> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that would be
> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a slightly
> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
> allowed)!
>
> regards,
> Derick
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

--
Joseph Crawford Jr.
Zend Certified Engineer
Codebowl Solutions, Inc.
http://www.codebowl.com/
Blog: http://www.josephcrawford.com/
1-802-671-2021
codebowl@gmail.com

Darrell Brogdon

19 years ago

+1

On Jul 26, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Joseph Crawford wrote:

> +1
>
> On 7/6/07, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:
>>
>> Ladies, Gentlemen, Kings and Princesses,
>>
>> With the nice PHP 5 / PHP 6 unicode semantics thread under way I am
>> trying to gauge what people feel about dropping support for PHP 4
>> at the
>> end of this year. That does not mean that we will not fix security
>> issues, we have to as the install base is too large, but that
>> would be
>> the only thing that would warrant a new release. I already sort of
>> mentioned this on april 1st, but I think we should come with a
>> slightly
>> more official statement. Your votes please (only -1 and +1 are
>> allowed)!
>>
>> regards,
>> Derick
>>
>> --
>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Joseph Crawford Jr.
> Zend Certified Engineer
> Codebowl Solutions, Inc.
> http://www.codebowl.com/
> Blog: http://www.josephcrawford.com/
> 1-802-671-2021
> codebowl@gmail.com

Darrell Brogdon
darrell@brogdon.net
http://darrell.brogdon.net

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