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RE: enabling postgresql by default

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Tim Parkin

23 years ago
> I suggest we don't open this discussion again. The archives are full
of
> past discussions. We'll continue with the status-quo barring major,
tiring
> discussions to change it.
Zeev, Could you please point me to the recent discussion that takes into account the progress of Postgres and the change in licensing of MySQL Thanks Tim ---------------------------------------------- Tim Parkin Managing Director Pollenation Internet Ltd www.pollenation.net m : 07980 59 47 68 t : 01132 25 25 00

Dan Kalowsky

23 years ago
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Tim Parkin wrote:
> Could you please point me to the recent discussion that takes into > account the progress of Postgres and the change in licensing of MySQL
There isn't a discussion on that topic per say, but there are plenty on why we do(n't) want to bundle new options with the code. Please read those and bash them into place for this drawing board.
>---------------------------------------------------------------<
Dan Kalowsky "I'll walk a thousand miles just http://www.deadmime.org/~dank to slip this skin." dank-nom@aps-deadmime.org - "Streets of Philadelphia", kalowsky@php.net Bruce Springsteen

Tim Parkin

23 years ago
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Tim Parkin wrote:
>> Could you please point me to the recent discussion that takes into >> account the progress of Postgres and the change in licensing of MySQL > >There isn't a discussion on that topic per say, but there are plenty on >why we do(n't) want to bundle new options with the code. Please read >those and bash them into place for this drawing board.
Perhaps the conversation has more pertinence in the current light? I have read many posts about default bundling and agree with many. However, some things get bundled, some others do not. I agree with Rasmus and Sterling regarding SQLite. I also agree than unbundling mysql is a good idea in the present circumstance (whereas previously there was no reason). It doesn't seem a cut-and-dried situation. I would just like to know what the arguments regarding the bundling of postgres are. If they've been posted before then I'll read them.
> That discussion is mostly non public and will not become public until
we can
> find a consensus/solution togeter with MySQL on LinuxTag during july.
Sorry, it appeared from what Zeev had said that this was a matter of historical record. Tim ---------------------------------------------- Tim Parkin Managing Director Pollenation Internet Ltd www.pollenation.net m : 07980 59 47 68 t : 01132 25 25 00

Georg Richter

23 years ago
On Tuesday 24 June 2003 23:28, Tim Parkin wrote:
> I would just like to know what the arguments regarding the bundling of > postgres are.
a) the Library has to be bundled too b) Postgres doesn't run/compile on all platforms (e.g. Windows) Regards Georg

(Marcus Börger)

23 years ago
Hello Tim, Tuesday, June 24, 2003, 10:55:07 PM, you wrote:
>> I suggest we don't open this discussion again. The archives are full
TP> of
>> past discussions. We'll continue with the status-quo barring major,
TP> tiring
>> discussions to change it.
TP> Zeev, TP> Could you please point me to the recent discussion that takes into TP> account the progress of Postgres and the change in licensing of MySQL That discussion is mostly non public and will not become public until we can find a consensus/solution togeter with MySQL on LinuxTag during july.
-- Best regards, Marcus mailto:helly@php.net

Zeev Suraski

23 years ago
At 00:20 25/06/2003, Marcus Börger wrote:
>TP> Zeev, > >TP> Could you please point me to the recent discussion that takes into >TP> account the progress of Postgres and the change in licensing of MySQL > >That discussion is mostly non public and will not become public until we can >find a consensus/solution togeter with MySQL on LinuxTag during july.
That implies that this discussion exists; It doesn't; We're not discussing the addition of PostgreSQL as a bundle in PHP as an alternative to MySQL. Zeev

Tim Parkin

23 years ago
>At 00:20 25/06/2003, Marcus Börger wrote: >>That discussion is mostly non public and will not become public until
we can
>>find a consensus/solution togeter with MySQL on LinuxTag during july. > >That implies that this discussion exists; It doesn't; We're not >discussing the addition of PostgreSQL as a bundle in PHP as an
alternative
>to MySQL. > >Zeev
The discussion that doesn't exist.. Is it the one you refer to in "I suggest we don't open this discussion again. The archives are full of past discussions." ...or is it the one that is taking place in private? As a development house that relies on PHP for it's living and also relies on MySQL as a default database (through supplying standard toolsets with flatfile/MySQL options for storage) You could say I have a vested interest in the possible future db usage on PHP. I agree that SQLite is a good idea, however I also see the need for standard, bundled db client code, after all the MySQL inclusion has had an enormous impact on hosting and hence the direction of mine and many other PHP oriented industries. The questions that are floating round my head 1) Will MySQL be included again - I presume this will probably be so, dependant on MySQL AB. 2) Will any consideration of including a non-commercial db client as default will EVER be considered regardless of circumstances. 3) If it would be considered, how much more favourable the circumstances would have to be for the inclusion to be seriously considered. 4) Should MySQL not be included again and no discussion of alternate DB's being allowed, am I right in presuming PHP would have no bundled DB client. Finally, this would be all made a lot easier if the libraries could be included at runtime from a local directory. From what I understand this should be possible with PECL. If all (most, some, importartant) modules could be included by dropping them into a ftp folder and including them in your code, none of these conversations would be relevant. So... 5) can we, or will we be able, to do this? Tim

Derick Rethans

23 years ago
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Tim Parkin wrote:
> 1) Will MySQL be included again - I presume this will probably be so, > dependant on MySQL AB.
No, we will not re-bundle the client libraries anymore. (Even if they have a good exception we can not bundle GPL'ed libraries).
> 2) Will any consideration of including a non-commercial db client as > default will EVER be considered regardless of circumstances.
No, we're not going to bundle new libraries anymore, unless there is a *very* good reason for it.
> 3) If it would be considered, how much more favourable the circumstances > would have to be for the inclusion to be seriously considered.
Akin to "the PHP world will end if we do not include it".
> > 4) Should MySQL not be included again and no discussion of alternate > DB's being allowed, am I right in presuming PHP would have no bundled DB client.
Yes, you are (except for SQLite though).
> Finally, this would be all made a lot easier if the libraries could be > included at runtime from a local directory. From what I understand this > should be possible with PECL. If all (most, some, importartant) modules > could be included by dropping them into a ftp folder and including them > in your code, none of these conversations would be relevant. So... > > 5) can we, or will we be able, to do this?
I'm not getting you here. Do you want to load any library by just dropping them in a directory? This only works for extensions with dl(), or by setting extension= in php.ini. If you want to have a library linked to this, I think it's possible to do, but it's up to the extension maintainer to make it one .so then (extension + library). (all points are my view on them, but I think most people share them) Derick
-- "Interpreting what the GPL actually means is a job best left to those that read the future by examining animal entrails." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ International PHP Magazine http://php-mag.net/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zeev Suraski

23 years ago
At 11:56 25/06/2003, Tim Parkin wrote:
> >At 00:20 25/06/2003, Marcus Börger wrote: > >>That discussion is mostly non public and will not become public until >we can > >>find a consensus/solution togeter with MySQL on LinuxTag during july. > > > >That implies that this discussion exists; It doesn't; We're not > >discussing the addition of PostgreSQL as a bundle in PHP as an >alternative > >to MySQL. > > > >Zeev > >The discussion that doesn't exist.. Is it the one you refer to in "I >suggest >we don't open this discussion again. The archives are full of past >discussions."
This was aimed at James, which was opening up the battered discussion of whether we should or shouldn't be bundling modules in PHP. I wasn't referring to PostgreSQL in particular...
>...or is it the one that is taking place in private?
There's some discussion going on in between the PHP group and MySQL AB regarding the status of the MySQL module in future PHP versions. But that's about it.
>The questions that are floating round my head > >1) Will MySQL be included again - I presume this will probably be so, >dependant on MySQL AB.
If you refer to the client library, my personal guess is no, but time will tell.
>2) Will any consideration of including a non-commercial db client as >default will EVER be considered > regardless of circumstances.
My personal guess is again, no. I'm not aware of any major commercial database that has an opensource client library, anyway.
>4) Should MySQL not be included again and no discussion of alternate >DB's being allowed, > am I right in presuming PHP would have no bundled DB client.
Right.
>Finally, this would be all made a lot easier if the libraries could be >included at runtime from a local directory. From what I understand this >should be possible with PECL. If all (most, some, importartant) modules >could be included by dropping them into a ftp folder and including them >in your code, none of these conversations would be relevant. So...
Runtime loading of libraries is deprecated, and is not possible in most shared hosting environments anyway (because it's a huge security risk). Zeev

Tim Parkin

23 years ago
Zeev and Derick said
> Lots of sane comments
Thanks very much for the quick replies... I think the way forward for most people will be to accept that cheap shared hosting environments are only suitable for basic web solutions. Virtual hosting is 'very' cheap now and if someone wants a (more complex|enterprise|custom) solution then they should accept that $10-$15 a month isn't much to pay for it. Many Thanks Tim ---------------------------------------------- Tim Parkin Managing Director Pollenation Internet Ltd www.pollenation.net m : 07980 59 47 68 t : 01132 25 25 00